Rebuttal

Ok so as some of you know I got into it with Dark/Soth over at Clearcasting  during this post in the comments section.  Today Arioch had Dark post his viewpoint.  Instead of posting a really long comment I am going to utilize this blog to reply to his post. ^_^

Don’t look at me like that!  It gives me a blog post :D

Dark feels that people in heroics should be doing a minimum of 2k dps in heroics.  Thinks there is no reason why everyone should not be taking advantage of all of the resources available online and all the BoE gear out there.  Since DPS is easy, there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to pull off 2k.  If they can’t pull off 2k then they shouldn’t be in heroics and need to stay in regular dungeons until they do.

Now this assumes that every person who hits 80 has already spent a lot of time researching their spec, their gearing needs and has a bank full of gear ready to go.  This is being called min/maxing.  I call it twink leveling.

Your average player is NOT going to do this.  You mostly find this with people who already have a main who can support this kind of money sink.  Yes it is a money sink.  Instead of using quest gear from Storm Peaks and Ice Crown to start regular dungeons you will pay money for BoEs that drop in heroics or raids or even crafted epic gear.  They will have the best gems that are appropriate.  Might not use the epic gems, but usually the blue quality.  Everything will have the best enchants that aren’t the really expensive ones.

Now I am not saying that you shouldn’t have gems or enchants on your gear.  Far from it.  I just think it is a waste to put an epic gem in a piece of gear I am going to replace quickly.  Epic gems go for the minimum of 150g on my server.  That is for both uncut and cut gems.  Half the time you can get the gem cheaper when it is already cut on the AH.  If you have an enchanter then you probably don’t have too much of an issue of getting enchanting materials.  I feel enchants follow along the same lines as the gems.  You don’t need to use the +10 stats on a chest piece that you are going to replace right away.  +8 stats is perfectly viable.  Hell if it is still a blue or a green you could even put +200 health on it without having too much of an issue.  Although I am sure Dark will disagree with me on that one as he has in the past.  Since we are talking about a fresh 80, they most likely will not be exalted with the Northrend factions, but they should be at the least friendly or even honored.  At honored, most of the factions will offer the lower tiered head enchant.  Failing having any rep with these guys, you can always get the PvP ones from WG.  Those are definitely not ideal, but are much better than having nothing.  Stone keeper shards are fairly simple to come across.  You just need to do a couple WG dailies and you have enough.  They even sell shoulder enchants if you don’t have rep with Sons of Hodir or are a scribe.

There is a huge difference between a brand new player coming into heroics and an alt.  New players usually, not always but usually, will not have access to the resources an alt will have.  New players don’t always know that they should go online and look up information on their class and spec.  They tend to not know about the blogging community and the gems that are found in it.  Until someone mentions to them that these resources are out there, they usually won’t go looking.  I look back when I first started playing.  I knew nothing of EJ or bloggers.  I was told about wowwiki by Andrew and that was in reference to picking a class for the game.  I used to use that to tell me what each of the stats did.  I had no idea that spirit was horrible for a rogue.  When I went back and looked at my lower level toons after I had been playing for about a year and saw what kind of gear I had them in I cringed.  At the time though I was thrilled I had such “good” gear for them.  To give you an idea: the rogue had all spirit gear, the balance druid was decked out in agility and the hunter had intellect stacked.  I still can’t believe how stupid those choices were, or that I spent money buying the gear off the AH.  Hell, my ret pally had a one hander and a shield as did my warrior >.>

These are the people who probably don’t do too too bad with their limited knowledge.  Most of them are quite responsive if you give them tips.  I was in a heroic VH with an affliction warlock that was spamming seed of corruption on a single target.  I told him my main was an affliction warlock and would he be willing to get some rotation advice.  He said “sure!”  I told him the rotation he wanted to use, when to use seed of corruption and even some ideas of where to put his teleport.  We got really lucky with the bosses in that run.  We had the dog and the giant alien.  Essentially stand there and dps fights.  His dps on the dog was 1100 using essentially shadowbolt spam.  On the alien he jumped up to almost 1500.  He was thrilled.  He wasn’t that geared out, not even fully ilvl 200.  Just right for heroics.

On the other side of the spectrum you have the people who should know better but don’t care.  These are the ones that piss off most people.  They stand in the fire, they roll need on spellpower plate as a warrior, because “it makes their thunderclap more powerful” and they wont accept help from anyone.  These people have no excuse for their 800 dps in a heroic.  These people usually grow up to become the ones spamming trade and general looking for more for their raid and requiring the achievement and 5k dps for Naxx.  >.<  These are the ones that not only want to be carried, but expect you to do it.  Screw these guys.  They will probably ninja the loot anyway.

What most people (elitists) tend to forget, or choose to forget I am not sure, is earlier in the year when heroics and Naxx was the only thing around, 1-1.5k was the norm.  People who could regularly pull off 2k+ dps were awesome to have in your group.  I remember when I started doing 1600 dps on my warlock.  I was over the moon.  The people I was running with were also proud of me.  I didn’t manage to pull off 2k dps regularly until I got into the T7 level of gear.  My guild didn’t raid so I didn’t have acess to that gear outside of pugging, which I didn’t want to do.  For running heroics though, I was perfectly fine.  We didn’t have issues getting bosses killed.  We might not have gotten the heroics completed in 15-20 mins, but most people didn’t get them completed that fast either.

Fast forward to today.  The badge available in heroics is the T9 level of gear.  If you run regular dungeons, you don’t get badges outside of your first random of the day.  At least I didn’t on my mage.  After you get 30 badges you can get your first piece of tier gear and move up from there.  Just queue up and go.  Some people will say that they have been seeing people in the harder heroics that don’t belong there.  I think people forget that you can still queue up for specific dungeons and the dungeon finder is not necessarily broken.  If you actually stop and think about it for a moment though, you will see that these people are perfectly geared for the instance.  They are doing the standard dps for the level.  You are the overgeared one doing above average dps.  Why are you holding these people to your standards?

It puts an unfair burdon on a game that is supposed to be fun.  I joke about my fail mage because she is a fail mage.  I have no intention of raiding with her.  I just want her to be compitent to run heroics when I get tired of healing and want a change.  I love my warlock, but I need to work on my key bind situation and currently hers is all messed up which makes her not very fun to play.  My mage fills this hole.  I will admit I get lazy in my guild heroics runs and don’t really do as well as I should.  When I am in a total random I put out the very best that I can.  This is on top of being a good mage by providing  a table, buffing and removing curses.  I manage 1600-1900 on bosses, if I am lucky with the hot streaks I can pull off over 2k.  My overall dps is usually around 1800-1900.  For the level I am playing, this is perfectly viable.  Could I be doing more?  Most likely.  My spec isn’t ideal, I don’t have enough crit and a bit too much hit.  However, I am having fun.  I like being able to use a blast wave to knock the zombies off the healer in CoS then follow up with a free flamestrike.  If I went with the raiding fire spec I would have to say goodbye to my fun spells.  I refuse to get duel spec on a dps toon unless I am going to PvP with them, which most likely will not happen.  I play this game to have fun.  I don’t need to be at the top of the meters to have fun.

I just like to be at the top of the meters to piss off Zakk, but hey that is another story ^_^

Ultimately you should do what makes the game fun for you.  For Dark it is having every last drop of dps being wrung out of his toon ;-) for me it is laughing at my fail mage.  I don’t doubt we both have a blast in what we do.  I also don’t think there is a right or wrong to this.  I just have a problem with people telling me I am bad for wanting to have fun.

Heroics are not srz bzns, raids are, but heroics aren’t.

So let’s take the stick out and have fun playing the game that is our addiction.  ^_^

56 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Orangeslice
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 10:42:20

    WALL OF TEXT INCOMING! jk. Nice responce. I do see yours and Soth’s points. I guess I am kinda weird that when lvling up my priest I would try to get the right gear etc and rep grind and look up stuff. But I guess that maybe the minority in this game.

    Anyways, when I was looking up minimum to run heroics on my priest i think it was 1500 SP…i did not dare step into one till i hit that mark and well past it. Now in the age of the LFG tool, I really dont mind individuals who are only maybe pulling 1200-1500 when they are freshly geared, paying attention and not standing in a fire. But I hate the people like you mentioned who are looknig to be carried. But I do admit…I do wonder why they do not take the time to get a little more gear before heading into a heroic…i did not stop in one will I was past the minimum for a priest.

    BTW nice blog! keep up the work!

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 10:47:41

      Thanks :)

      Aren’t you glad I posted here instead of in the comments on Clearcasting? lol

      I had a rough idea of what I needed on my mage. She did run a bunch of regular dungeons before she jumped into heroics. I didn’t farm ToC or the new ICC ones though. The highlight of the regular dungeons was getting a robe off Loken in HoL. Now if he would only drop the pants I want from heroic then all will be good :D.

      I think my mage was around 1500 sp when I started heroics, I wasn’t quite hit capped, but it didn’t take long for me to get there. I actually stopped pugging on her recently because my guildies have actually been available to run with me where I don’t need to heal. I always make sure they don’t mind my fail mage. We all get a kick out of her.

      Thanks again for stopping by and I hope you come back :D

      Reply

      • Orangeslice
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:15:08

        I really like this topic…very very thought provocing!

        “I had a rough idea of what I needed on my mage. She did run a bunch of regular dungeons before she jumped into heroics. I didn’t farm ToC or the new ICC ones though. The highlight of the regular dungeons was getting a robe off Loken in HoL. Now if he would only drop the pants I want from heroic then all will be good ”

        this is mentality I like to see. I dont like seeing people popping into heroics without any knowledge on what they need etc :) (although I am still a noob at this game lol)

        But then again…as someone mentioned you may never see the people again in your PUG ever again, so eh just roll with the punches. AND WATCH OUT IF ARI HAS SOMETHING PLANNED WATCH OUT!!!!!!

        Reply

  2. Dark/Soth
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 10:55:32

    One thing that I should of touched on more in my post was that dps today is significantly easier than it was when Wrath launched. Yes, people back then could pull 2k as a fresh 80 in greens and blues. No, I wasn’t one of them. I think I did about 1800 in heroics on my Deathknight right after dinging 80, and about 1900-2000 on my mage, before getting full T7. The biggest difference for me was that I did not jump into heroics at level 80. I did A LOT of normals and worked on a lot of faction reputation to get epics.

    I made the comment to Arioch privately that 2000 dps today is about 1400-1500 dps 12 months ago. I stand by that. The gear is easier to obtain. BoA and BoE gear is more available and cheaper, many classes have been buffed, rotations have been simplified, and the pool of resources available to assist the common player is significantly larger than at the Wrath launch. Again I say that DPS is a LOT easier today than 12 months ago.

    Also, something I keep saying that keeps getting glossed over is that your average player without a main to support their alts, without knowledge of the game, without knowledge of BoEs or BoAs or online resources should not be jumping into heroics.

    WoW progression for the beginner:
    Normal dungeons -> heroic dungeons/naxx 10 -> harder raids.

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 11:27:31

      There is only so much you can do in regular dungeons until you hit a wall though. In all honesty the lower level heroics (UK and Nexus) are just fine for fresh 80s.

      We have a new guildie who is a RL friend of mine. He has spent the last few years just solo leveling his toons. His gear is almost all green/blue quest rewards, his spec is for soloing and he had never been in the Northrend dungeons. The other night we took him through a couple dungeons. We started with some regulars and then popped into heroics. We were given heroic AN and he did just fine. We managed to get him an upgrade in one of the regulars that helped him to pull out 1300 dps in AN. He actually got over 2k on the first boss, but then my fail mage got over 2500 so I don’t know how good that first boss counts. >.>

      Reply

    • rustbeard
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 13:16:55

      “Your average player without a main to support their alts … should not be jumping into heroics”

      Hmm…. what if you’re playing your main and don’t have a sugar daddy to support you? How the heck are you going to get geared. Sounds to me like you’re implying that those folks should just sit aside and shut up. Now, THAT’s the defination of an elitest.

      Reply

    • Dilynrae
      Jan 01, 2010 @ 18:32:58

      Your also assuming that the players without mains to support alts (referring of course to newer players) actually have the patience to wait and gear in that manner. So your telling me people like that are gonna say “No, I wanna spend another 1-2 weeks of playing in a slower manner to get the same gear”.

      Your kidding right? The majority of the WoW players today have the patience and attention span of a 5 year old child, they don’t want to wait any longer then necessary. Why? Because they want to be on the same level as their friends in the game (or perhaps RL), waiting is just not an option.

      Hell there are a growing number of players in PUG heroics nearly lose their minds if ya make them wait 30 seconds cause you need to do something. I’ve joined groups where the tank has already started pulling before everyone has zoned in or had a chance to buff up (a more frequent occurance lately), only to get pissed off when he faceplants a few moments later cause the healer is no where near him.

      And you seriously expect the community as a whole to “wait” when they know they can be carried through heroics for a while until their gear improves, or they have a clue how to properly play their toon. I’m not sure what drugs your taking, but I dont think the dose is high enough, cause frankly expectations like that with the community as it stands now is not reasonable.

      And whether 2000 dps is the same as what 1400-1500 was 12 months ago is irrelevant, counting only the 3 dps spots you STILL only need to be doing around 4500-5000 dps in TOTAL to successfully complete them in the same rough time frame it took to complete them a year ago. The problem is as I have stated before people want to faceroll them, which is fine that is choice they are free to make. Do I care that I have a 1200 dps hunter in my group? So long as everyone else is not doing the same, it really doesn’t matter to me, I’m sure with better gear, properly gemmed and enchanted that same hunter within a week (depending on how many heroics that player is able to do in a weeks time) will be more then pulling his or her own weight.

      Now say if that person were in all ilvl 232 gear or better doing 1200 dps I would gladly take the time to talk to them and help them in whatever manner they wanted, provided of course they were willing to accept my help.

      Reply

  3. repgrind
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 11:12:46

    Heck, I’d play with your failmage any time. I might even failtank for ya.

    One of the reasons I play where I do, is because our guild believes that having fun is the most important thing. Yeah, we raid … and people are expected to have a clue … but there’s a large difference between having a clue and being min/maxed and EJ’d out the you-know-where. Want to play a frost mage (before the recent patch that made them raid-viable)? No problem! When someone screws up, we laugh about it. They learn from their mistake and we all move on. (Ok, we don’t let the holy/prot pally forget about the time he tried to tank in holy spec, but it’s all in fun and he laughs as hard as the rest of us) People that are newer to the game, we gently guide through gear choices and rotations and try to help them become better players. Sure, some people will just .. never get it. But for those who are willing to learn, or want to have fun without being forced to play an EJ cookie cutter spec … we have a place for them.

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 11:22:27

      Aww well thank you. You don’t happen to be in the ruin battlegroup by any chance?

      You guys sound like my guild. Last night in one of the random heroics we were in, Andrew was on his rogue and got pouty because the need/greed window wouldn’t let him need on spellpower bracers.

      He needed them! I had been giving him flack for his crappy mana regen and told him to buff up his MP5. I was getting tired of his constant /oom

      stupid rogues and their crappy mana regen

      ^_^

      Reply

    • Dilynrae
      Jan 01, 2010 @ 18:40:37

      And that is the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played, for FUN! Unfortunately the serious min/maxers expect everyone to be just like them or they are just worthless scrub losers.

      Do I use EJ and min/max? Yes I do, now do I expect everyone else to follow and repeat what I do? Hell no, mainly because I also know full well that most people that are “purists” to their class can blow me out of the water in overall dps and ability, the larger portion of the playing community either doesn’t know or care that these kinds of resources exist. They play how THEY want.

      Reply

  4. Ak
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 11:59:15

    Hmn… Well it’s a complex issue, but I have the advantage of not caring very much.

    While DPS <1k will raise my eyebrows a bit and possibly get me to check someone's gear or talents or their ability usage out of morbid curiosity, and maybe I'll have a chuckle in /G or vent about it.. That's really the extent that I give a damn. If it's a class I know how to play maybe I'll /w a few suggestions and if they seem receptive do a little more tutoring if I can.

    ====BEGIN OPINION=======

    But really. These are people you'll be playing with for ~20 minutes and then will probably never see again. They aren't worth undue consideration, and they aren't going to ruin my night if they're underpar.

    Of course I DO start to mind if someone causes a group wipe or three due to a bad case of stupid, and Serious Business Raids are a different story or course. But for your average H-pug, Ehh. Wear a santa hat and swing a fishing pole for all the damn I give, really, just don't get anyone killed.

    Hell, low DPS groups can be fun at times. Earlier this year I was ramming groups through the Dark Knight fight through sheer force of Rogueish DPS and awesomeness. (TotT+AR+FoK Phase 2 to collect Ghouls on the tank, Phase 3 BF+KS(+speed potion if needed), CoS the Mark if you get it) It was fun. ..Well for me, anyway, your mileage may vary, but I get a kick out of being able to use my abilities to their fullest and actually have a measurable impact on the fight.

    Of course high DPS groups are fun too, completely ruining the ass of a boss in ~20 seconds is fine as well. ;) I was in a group earlier with this week with a 45K health tank all ~4K DPSers. I look over to my left and the healer is meleeing next to me in tree form as no healing was necessary. Put up a solid 32 DPS as well. ;)

    In short, I guess the only person whose performance I am really concerned with is my own. In my own selfish way I to like being on top of the meters, and if I'm not then I look at whoever beat me (most commonly an Ele shammy or arcane mage) and see what they were doing. (Remember to check total damage as well, there are some interrresting results to be found there, occasionally)

    But really, Everyone's there to have fun. (presumably, anyway) I have fun by playing my class as effectively as I can, and making walls of numbers appear on my screen.. I get a secret, evil thrill from matching or exceeding the damage of people with higher gearscores than mine.

    I like playing my class as effectively as I am able, but I don't expect that of every person I meet. Everyone's there to have fun (again presumably, in some groups it's hard to tell -_-) but for every minmaxer there's probably double the number of people who are playing so they'll have something to do with their friends or family, supercasuals, 12-year-olds, and people who get off work and just want to spend a quiet hour or two beating the shit out of some iron dwarves. You can't control these people, so don't sweat it.

    So.. eh.. Just roll with it, and try to keep everything in perspective.

    It's all fun and games, right? ;)

    … But if they're fucking up your raid, well then let the bitching commence, I highly endorse that. ;)

    =====END OPINION=====

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 12:02:18

      fucking rogues and your instant 4k dps >.>

      Reply

      • Ak
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 12:11:38

        Yeah, everything’s easy when you don’t know what’s involved. ;)

        Reply

      • koalabear21
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 12:13:39

        i believe you told me you press 1, then you press 3, then you press 3, then you press 3, then you press 4, then you press 3, then you press 3

        did i get it right?

        Reply

      • Orangeslice
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 12:22:04

        rogues like to cheat!!!!

        /ja :”Sneak Attack”
        /wait 1
        /ja “Trick Attack”

        Opps wrong game lol.

        But yeah rogues seem like instant DPS lol.

        Reply

    • Dilynrae
      Jan 01, 2010 @ 18:51:10

      Having a 1k dps’er in heroics, not a big deal, having the same person in an ICC 10/25 man doing 1k, that’s another matter entirely. If it were say Naxx 10/25, and everyone BUT that person was overgeared doing 3K+ dps, again I probably wouldn’t care either, provided of course that person wasn’t “overgeared” themselves, that would just force me to put them on my totally clueless player list (and yes I have a rather long list of players from my server that I keep around), I reference that list whenever we need to PUG someone for a raid. Most of the time people wind up on that list for acting like a total arrogant jackass. Bad players when willing to accept help can be made into decent/on par with everyone else kind of players. People who act like elitist DILDOS rarely change…

      Reply

  5. Ak
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 12:24:38

    What? No… it’s:

    (keypad -),1111164(Ctrl-1)111113(Ctrl-4) 111113111113111116

    ..I changed my keybinds a bit.

    But hey it’s still better than BC-era BM Hunter, Which was:
    19222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222

    Reply

  6. rustbeard
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 13:20:22

    Well said. In fact, I echoed the cash constraint issue in my reply over on Arioch’s blog. I couldn’t wait until I read yours, I was just too peeved at the suggestion that everyone should be running heroics in epics. It used to be that’s where you went to get your epics – there wern’t the BoE purples falling in the AH, because there weren’t recipies until after Uludar.

    Do I do my best, you betcha. Do I spend 5 hours a day researching my class each and every hotfix, tweak my spec to get every last bit of DPS out of it, no. I have a job, a life, and other things – but believe me, I’m raid capable. I suppose in some eyes that makes me just a n00b.

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 13:26:24

      Why thank you. Your comment on Arioch’s blog made me smile really big and want to tell you that you won the internets.

      Reply

      • Orangeslice
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:12:25

        I did write a response to your comment Rustbeard….I do see where you are coming from. But in this day and age, the 200 BOE epics arent too expensive imo. this is coming from a priests perspective so i have no idea how much a DPS gear set could be.

        Reply

      • koalabear21
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:14:58

        Most of the BoEs blues aren’t that expensive anymore. But they also aren’t that much better than what you are getting in the dungeons.

        They also drop so much that you have a better chance getting it from running heroics then shelling over gold to buy it.

        Reply

      • Dilynrae
        Jan 01, 2010 @ 19:06:49

        It’s not that they are expensive, but take this for example:

        I “COULD” have spent around 1000 gold to buy the cloth necessary to buy my Shadow Priest the ilvl 200 Ebonweave gloves and chest, this would have helped out her hit situation, I also could have spend another small fortune on the ilvl226 belt and boots for her, buying runed orbs and the cloth to make those items. Instead I used her heirloom robe, bought the moonshroud gloves for 150 gold and had a few ilvl 187+ tailoring items made. I then coaxed my guildies into having me heal them for a few heroic runs until I could afford to buy some epic gear with them (belt, boots, and ammy since I knew 3.3 was coming out very soon). Some of the epic gear that dropped while I was running I used for both healing and shadow spec, and when I started running heroics in shadow I was doing a whopping 1.3 to 1.4k dps, within a few days I was around 1.8k+. Even when running with PUGs when my overall damage AND dps was lower then say the pally tank, no one said a word. This was also the first toon since Lich King came out that I “slacked” a bit and didnt buy the best out there. Why? Cause I knew when 3.3 came out anything I spent gold on now, would be replaced within 2 weeks, so I didn’t feel like wasting 2k+ gold for gear that I knew within 2 weeks would be replaced. If it had been a year ago I would have not even thought about doing something like that if my toon couldn’t pull it’s own weight in heroics, because at that time that extra couple hundred dps was NEEDED. Now in most cases you could have your 3rd dps fart on a snare drum the whole instance and STILL faceroll your way through them.

        Reply

      • koalabear21
        Jan 01, 2010 @ 19:10:08

        “fart on a snaredrum”

        that just made my day

        LOL

        Reply

  7. Orangeslice
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:17:38

    Hmmm. That is true, I will not deny that. But again I am in the minority where I like to have all my I’s dotted and T crossed before heading into the unknown. :) Just playing devils advocate.

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:27:43

      At least you are aware of it lol

      Reply

      • Dark/Soth
        Dec 31, 2009 @ 17:40:57

        “At least you are aware of it lol”

        I’m aware of it now. /wink

        “But again I am in the minority where I like to have all my I’s dotted and T crossed before heading into the unknown.”

        The fact that I’m basically arguing a form of this and so many are against it is quite sad.

        Reply

  8. theerivs
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 14:33:38

    I’ll comment later, cause theres JD need drinking, but Happy New Year

    Reply

  9. Poneria
    Dec 31, 2009 @ 16:52:47

    Heyyyyyyy, I finally made it. This is slowpoker from Twitter, btw.

    Gear, Skill, Gear, Skill…I feel like I’m hopping on a carousel and going around in circles.

    My opinion? Skill above all. There are people who don’t care and there are people who care about how they play. This affects how you do, obviously. Gear ilvl, GearScore, whatever, the question I think this is about is what is the base gear appropriate level of DPS as expected output? For me, fresh 80 in quest blues & greens, it’s somewhere between about 1.5k and 2k.

    It also depends on the spec and it also depends on the group makeup. A group does better if certain debuffs are on the boss (CoE, FFF, whatever). As an affliction lock running heroics as overgeared with overgeared people…I’m lucky if I hit 3k half the time. Even though in raid I can easily get up to 4k. Why? Because the mobs die faster due to the other OP dps before my DoTs tick, which is my major source of damage. AoE damage murkifies the Recount stats.

    I generally judge groups by time completed and wipes used, not by gear. An OP group can easily complete a heroic in 10-15min flat. A new 80 group can do it in 20-30min. It’s designed for 20-30min. Every once in a while you get Nexus or somebody wants to hit all the trash and it might go over 30 min because it’s just a LOT to go through.

    The healer goes OOM during a fight and the fight ain’t over? I question it then. The DPS keep dying because the tank isn’t picking up all the mobs with a reasonable amount of time? (DPS dying before the tank has hit the mob twice get no sympathy from me.) Recount tells me you’ve been spamming Auto-Shot? That’s when I start to get cranky. But none of that is gear-related. I don’t get cranky because you’re undergeared; I get cranky because you SUCK.

    Reply

  10. Anabella
    Jan 01, 2010 @ 23:15:31

    I know that the chances for this reply to be read are slim to none after 40 other posts, but here it goes anyway (I will post it at Arioch’s too).

    I want to tell you a story about two players. Both of them have been playing since Vanilla days. Both of them have many, many alts, have gone through numerous servers and guilds, and have played most of relevant content. They play similar hours (none of them is “casual”). They are even friends in RL, and spend much time discussing the mechanics of the game.

    Now, the first player (lets call him Player A), has the following progression: he creates a toon on character page, levels it in 24 hours or something silly like that, dings 80 and goes … to normal instance (shocking, isn’t it?). After a few of those, where he does 2,5k dps in quest rewards, he proceeds to heroics. I have been in VoA raid with his newest warlock (green trinkets were to be had on the toon at that point), where he pulled 4,5k dps and came out third.

    The second player (Player B), does it similarly concerning progression, has the same amount of experience in game, has much more gold at his disposal in game (more patience with daily quests), and barely breaks 3 k dps wearing ilevel 245 epics on his latest toon (DK).

    I have played with both of them. Player A was never carried. Player B is ALWAYS carried, even after 5 years of playing.

    Player A does his research and presses his buttons in correct order. Player B watches TV while playing, and then whines how his current class is crappy and nerfed. Go figure.

    I know it is a fallacy to make a scientific conclusion based on an example of two people, but they do clearly show that it’s about the willingness to improve, about skill (gasp), and about just plain not being lazy.

    Me? I play a healer :D

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Jan 01, 2010 @ 23:32:59

      I just let the tank and obnoxious dps die in the heroic i was healing.

      The first thing I said as we zoned in was “If you run away from me, I will not heal you.”

      They obviously didn’t believe me.

      When they died, the dps was pissed and the tank made sure I was there each time he started pulling.

      They do learn.

      Reply

    • Dilynrae
      Jan 02, 2010 @ 19:14:39

      I agree it is about a willingness to improve one’s self, a larger portion of any community regardless of what you are talking about refuse to believe “they” are the problem when they are unable to perform in the same manner as a similar geared toon.

      Until I my shadow priest, I had never allow myself to be carried in any manner on my toons. I always made sure that I had the best gear, gems and enchants (within reason) on my fresh 80′s so that they could perform in a manner I felt contributed to the groups I was part of. Now granted my shadow priest’s DPS wasnt THAT bad when she first started, and it did improve rapidly as I replaced essential gear quickly on her, with the biggest improvements coming after the changes made in 3.3 with that spec.

      But yes I did to some small degree allow her to be carried, until such time as her gear allow her to do the kind of DPS you would expect(or more) for her current gear level, which right now is around 5.3k+ in 10/25 ToC/ICC raids, including her being usually in the top 3 for overall damage. Which when you think of what measly DPS she had been putting out just a few weeks prior, was a vast improvement.

      Reply

  11. Tamarind
    Jan 04, 2010 @ 04:08:54

    Wow, gosh, lots of food thought here, and lots of awesome discussion. To be honest I think there are quite a few entangled issues… and I think it’s bloody complicated.

    Firstly: I think my ground rule is something along the lines of “DPS commenserate with your gear level.” I think it’s genuinely problematic to say “this is your cut off point” because that’s unfairly hostile to new and inexperienced players, or people without vast resources at their fingertips. So if you’re in quest blues and greens and you’re pulling in 1-1.5k DSPs, I am happy. If you’re in full triumph gear and pulling in 2k DPS, I am most assuredly not.

    Secondly, I think one of the larger issues intersecting this is connected to entitlement and carrying – I think nobody objects to ‘carrying’ (to an extent) a genuinely new player or somebody trying to gear up their tank, or whatever. But I think this subset of lazy bastards (the ones you mention who invitably grow up to demand 5k in Naxx) who think they’re entitled to be carried makes people who do, in fact, put effort into their performance feel twitchy and put upon. It is not our “job” to cruise other players to epixx. And I think the problem is weeding out the former – people we can genuinely help – from the latter – people who are taking advantage of us.

    And also I think we have to recognise that the system as it stands but undue pressure on tanks and healers – tanks and healers HAVE to to overgear everything, tanks because people will complain, say “gogogo” all the time and make not attempt not to rip aggro and then blame the tank for it, and healers because if you do have some lazy morons pulling in 1.5k DPS with one hand and picking their nose with the other, you have to cover for them essentially. It’s your mana pool that dwindles.

    Also the thing about “having fun” (which I’m a big fan of!) is the way it impacts the group as a whole. It is very easy for someone’s fun to come at the expense of another’s – howabout who tank who pulls the entire instance (lol) before the healer is ready?

    Sorry, epic comment! Broadly speaking, however, I think I’m with you on this one :)

    Reply

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  13. Lyssarra
    Jan 05, 2010 @ 07:26:59

    Great post. I don’t read all of your postings, but I liked this one because I can completely relate. My 5th 80, a hunter, is not greatly geared. I ran it through a few regular dungeons and managed to get it on a Naxx 10 kill-Raz-only run where the bow dropped. Then I moved right on to heroics with the BOA shoulders. I am not great at her, sometimes I do decent dps, sometimes not, but she is fun to play and I will be pvping on her.

    Long story short, thanks for posting. :) – Lyss the DK from Arthas

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Jan 05, 2010 @ 10:06:17

      -this-

      This is all the point I was trying to make. Play what is fun.

      My fail mage is not the best mage in the world, but she is a hell of fun to play.

      My guildie put it very well yesterday – “As long as no one is killed by their stupidity, I don’t care how they are doing. It is just a game.”

      Thanks for droping by :D

      Reply

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  19. wow guide to leveling
    Jan 09, 2010 @ 21:17:54

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  20. Rogue Leveling Guide
    Jan 19, 2010 @ 11:43:22

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