Raiding and Cataclysm

I had a discussion with a fellow blogger today.  It was enough of a topic to get me to write a post.  So here you go!

**Note, I am referring to regular raiding, not heroics**

Raiding in Wrath spoiled people.  As Rep put it, in Wrath raiding you could drag any old casual off the roster along when you were short someone.  You could feed them the strat and they could perform.  Even if they were the worst player out there you could still down bosses.  Especially in ICC with the pity buff.

I remember doing 25 man ICC with SR when I first dinged 80.  I was still in greens for crying out loud and yet I was carried through to the plague quarter.  I wasn’t alone in being carried either.

Fast forward to Cataclysm.

Raiding is “hard” again.

This is NOT ICC with the 30% pity buff.  This is NOT 10 man raids with 25 man gear.  10 man raiding is TOUGH.  There is less margin for error.  People CANNOT be carried.  Each person HAS to do their job, and do it correctly or you will spend your raid night wiping.

I don’t know about you but I don’t enjoy wiping for 4 hours in a night.

Wiping the entire night is even worse when each wipe has NO progression.

The problem I am seeing people having is they shouldn’t be raiding and yet they are attempting it.

The bare, and I do mean BARE minimum that I would even consider taking someone raiding would require at least these things:

  • Fully enchanted
  • Fully gemmed
  • Fully reforged
  • Caps met or close
  • Correct gear type

Now I expect these to be at least the correct enchants/gems/reforging for your spec.  This means no Agility plate for the Holy pally.

Sorry Zari.

Now this is NOT min/maxing.  This is the bare minimum needed to perform anything in end game content.  This doesn’t even take into account if you have a decent spec (I’m not talking EJ spec just a logical one) or the ilvl of your gear.  Gear comes later, skill is needed now.

Sorak will point out that I am a big proponent of needing more gear to complete something.  Let me clarify what I mean when I say that someone isn’t geared enough.

  • The rdps is not high enough to beat the enrage timer
  • The rhps is not high enough to keep the tanks alive

That is it.

That is what I am referring to when I say we don’t have the gear for something.

If you truly still feel that gear is the issue and the problem isn’t those two items then maybe you are doing something you shouldn’t.

There is a clear progression in getting geared to raid.

Quest rewards -> Regular Dungeons -> Rep Gear -> Heroic Dungeons -> Justice Gear -> Valor Gear -> Raiding

While you CAN go into raiding with the lower end of gear you will fail a hell of a lot more.  Unless of course you have a raid full of Zugs.  Then you could probably go in there naked and still do 20k dps.

Nerf Zug, seriously.

Back on topic!

You will hear people say that you need a minimum ilvl of 338-340 for raids.  I would agree with that.  That puts you pretty firmly in the 333-346 range.  You might have a few 318 greens or some 325 blues, but for the most part you have to at least ground out some dungeons or maxed out some reps.

AKA – You worked for it.

Raiding equals work.  People have compared it to a 2nd job.  In a lot of ways it is.  If you want to succeed at your job you work at it.  You do your homework.  You make adjustments when things aren’t done correctly.  As Slice says “You work will not pay you to fail, why should WoW?”

Right now a lot of “casual” raiders are facing the issue of what they need to do since they cannot down bosses.  First and foremost they have to decide if they are willing to put the time and effort into raiding.  Even just the bare minimum listed above.  If that is too “hardcore” then they shouldn’t be raiding.

Just because someone is casual does not mean they are bad.

My words of advice to those who are facing this situation – Sit down with your raiders and find out from them how much they actually want to do.  If they don’t have the time (or the will) to put in the effort to raid in Cataclysm in current content then you guys should re-evaluate if you should even be raiding.  If raiding isn’t in the works then start working on heroics again.

If you do decide that you want to raid then you need to evaluate each raider.  The raid leader/class leader needs to go through the player’s spec and make sure they have met the basic requirements.  If they have not, then they need to fix it before they raid.  Don’t be that person that lets down the 9 other people.

You don’t even need to do major research.  If you can’t be assed to go online and do a google search then you can at least reforge to stats that you like, enchant for stats that you like, gem for stats that you like.

EVERY

LITTLE

BIT

HELPS

I wish you luck!

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13 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. zarigar
    Apr 25, 2011 @ 16:57:35

    No agility plate? >.<

    That is what I get for listening to Tel.

    Reply

  2. Fulguralis
    Apr 26, 2011 @ 07:55:59

    “The problem I am seeing people having is they shouldn’t be raiding and yet they are attempting it.”

    “Raiding equals work.”

    What I feel needs to be asked whenever those two statements are uttered is very simply: “is that what is best for the game?”

    I totally agree that that is how things stand now as opposed to before, but is this a shift for better or worse? Blizz has taken away accessibility that they offered before. If you assume the majority of the player base is on the more “casual” end and isn’t looking for “work,” then you go back to the old problem where they’re spending time designing content for the few instead of the many, which makes no economic sense.

    It would seem to me that Blizz forgot all the lessons they learned in Wrath. They CAN design things that are both hard AND easy. It doesn’t need to be one or the other. Wasn’t that the whole point behind having both heroic and normal modes in the first place? If Heroics are for the “hardcore,” then shouldn’t normals be for the “casuals.”

    With that being said, I totally did my own version of Call to Arms with my raid crew, sending an email out about reforging. I think it’s easy for a lot of casual, experienced players to overlook reforging. We’ve always gotten by on skill/knowledge and not really maximized our gear. Like it or not, in the Cataclysm World… of Warcraft, you just can’t do that.

    In addition… I’ll own up to having been discussed at :-).

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:06:21

      Now see this is where I disagree. There is a difference to being a casual player and a casual raider.

      I really do think that Blizz has opened up the content for everyone. In my old alliance guild we didn’t get a chance to even see Naxx until Ulduar came out. We were a casual guild and yet we still saw the content. Maybe not when it was released, but we saw it. Hell we even got to raid ICC and got 6/12.

      The issue I am seeing is the casual player (not raider) wants to see content when it is current and doesn’t want to put the effort in. That isn’t something I feel Blizzard should change.

      Reply

  3. Fulguralis
    Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:20:51

    We saw Naxx right away. We didn’t get very far into Ulduar. Part of that had to do with guild hopping.

    Still, if you’re talking respective difficulties… Naxx was accessible right away for very minimal effort. It was pretty forgiving.

    I think the casual player (in your definition) should be able to have raid content available to them right away and not have to wait. Thus, ramp the difficulty up for the second raid release (or vary the difficulty of the three your release right away) so that there is something for everyone.

    Using the old comparisons. Ulduar and ICC should remain aloof and requiring effort. Naxx (and throwing us a bone with ToC) provided casual players something to gnaw at even if they never got serious enough to get through ICC/Ulduar. I thought that worked well. Why change it?

    If I were doing the design, I would choose one raid dungeon and make it easy, then leave the others as they are now (or maybe make them slightly harder). Doesn’t that please everyone?

    I get what you’re saying with the effort thing, but why can’t we have our cake and eat it too? What good is cake without the eating? :-)

    Reply

    • koalabear21
      Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:24:12

      Cause raiding =/= Cake

      And we all know that the cake is a lie

      duh

      Reply

    • koalabear21
      Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:31:10

      Seriously though.

      When you guys hit Naxx did you guys just stroll in there with quest rewards and regular dungeon loot? Or did you guys run heroics and make sure all of your gear was the absolute best you could do?

      I don’t agree that the first tier of raiding should be E-Z mode so that people who don’t put in the bare minimum effort to raid are able to down bosses. There has to be some challenge for those of us who (I feel) are actually the majority that Blizzard is striving to reach.

      Reply

      • slice213
        Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:55:13

        To play the other side. (although my respnce below says otherwise)

        Why should it not be though? With millions of players, why not funnel people thru to get them ready for the next BIG content patch?

        (assuming a regular update schedule and perfect world)

        Lets say the intial patch came out and it was aimed for entry lvl and was easier. The next patch comes out 2 months later. It would make sense for the inital tier to be easier for gearing up purposes.

        Also with any story we all know the intial scene/chapters are used to devleop the antagonists so they can eventually be strong enough for the climaz of the story.

        So why cannot it be easier?

        Reply

  4. slice213
    Apr 26, 2011 @ 08:49:28

    I see both points, both are valid points.

    Although, I did not start playing till Wrath, I was even shocked to the “ease” of raiding in Wrath. All it took was to get to 80, get some gems, enchnats, some badge gear and boom ICC ho!

    Blizzard did a good job to getting everyone to see content for the most part, and that makes business sense, but by making it too “easy” where people could slack to get “phat” loot…people became greedy and sloppy, and set in their ways.

    So….fast foward to Cata…I think Blizzard needed to tone down all the handholding they gave in Wrath. People should not be given out “pupz” for free, that makes no sense, design and game wise.

    Why rush people through the content and then sitting around picking their noses for the next patch, that just makes bored players, and bored players leave.

    True, the same could be said for people who cannot get past raid bosses, BUT at least that gives them a goal, a driving force as to say. This in turn hopefully, will make people evolve and change their thoughts, mentality, and play style. When we don’t change, we die. Simple as that. People who stay the same are stagnant and are not really living.

    However, with the relative difficulty, I can understand why people want to think it should be toned down. However, I am not sure as to why? It makes no sense to have a super easy mode. As I mentioned above, if people couild gear up in super easy mode and then roflpwn the “normal” mode…it would be Wrath 2.0 again.

    We all are paying customers and we should be able to see the same content, this is true. However, I cannot condone for all to see content if they are not willing to put the minimal amount of work into their game.

    When it comes to comparing WoW to work…makes no sense to me. I dont want to make WoW a game…./sigh

    Think about your hobbies. If you play a game like Magic. You would spend time/money/effort to play. Its the same with WoW. If you like board games, you spend money on the game, and you learn the rules, and like others you strive to win and create strategies to do so. If you play Miniature games, you paint etc.

    So calling WoW research or work is odd to me, cause in any hobby one does for fun entails some kind of time and/or money investment.

    Reply

  5. Fulguralis
    Apr 26, 2011 @ 10:29:41

    I guess a lot just depends on your definition of what the minimum is, and that varies widely from person to person. My minimum is not the same as most of my guildmates, for instance. But I like to min/max, so I’m going to do it anyway.

    As far as this: “When you guys hit Naxx did you guys just stroll in there with quest rewards and regular dungeon loot?”

    Yeah, pretty much. Didn’t everyone do this? Isn’t that why they were “too easy?”

    I mean I geared up so fast in Wrath that Naxx was outgeared in a blink. Yet I still remember doing the first wing basically right away, before I’d finished rep grinds and stuff like that… then finishing the last wings with all purples almost. You geared up THROUGH Naxx. I’m not saying that that is “right,” just that’s how it was.

    People will have different opinions as we’ve hit on above, but it is certainly a very stark change. A very rude wake up call. And is it necessary? Couldn’t they have essentially just offered a “first wing of Naxx” place where you can fine-tune your raid group. Maybe it doesn’t even drop purples, but rewards just like a heroic. Then keep the others as-is. What’s wrong with a 10/25 man heroic instance? My point is that it just doesn’t have to be all or nothing. They could have presented the progession pathing a lot better. Where before people were quitting due to boredom, now people are quitting due to lack of feeling productive. Shouldn’t we aim in the middle? Why does it seem so black and white?

    Reply

  6. Hex
    Apr 27, 2011 @ 00:00:23

    I’ve done a lot of the current raid content, and based on that, I have a pretty simple view of things. To entertain the masses, regular Raid bosses should be easier than they currently are, and Heroic raid bosses should be harder.

    Reply

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