What is your raiding game?

A recent conversation in vent and a post on WoW.com has me thinking about this.

Echo of Fate is a 10 man guild.  We raid, but we are not a raiding guild.  I am immensely proud of our raiding achievements.  We have said that we want to be able to kill The Lich King, but until recently I never thought that we would actually do it.  We have always just been behind the curve.  When everyone was raiding in Ulduar we were still in heroics and pugging Naxx.  When people were ROFLstomping ToC we were just starting to test the waters in Ulduar.  When people were banging their heads in ICC, we were running heroics and Ulduar.  Yes, Ulduar.  We only fairly recently ventured into ToC and Ony.  Now we can go in and clear those out fairly quickly.

Our runs in ICC have been getting better each time we go in.  The last two times we have gone in we have one shot the first three bosses and two shot Saurfang.  Last week we managed to take down Festergut.  At least 10 other guilds on our server, who have been raiding ICC a lot longer than we have, still have yet to take him down.  We came up from no where and are slowly making progress.  I am hoping that we can keep our steady group of raiders and go on to take down the Lich King.  It is my goal.

The other guild I belong to is Shadow Rising.  They are a raiding guild.  They currently do 10 man progression and are trying out 25 man ICC.  In fact they were in there last night.  They aren’t fully fleshed out for 25 man ICC and still have to use PuGs but they will be raiding ICC fairly soon.  Their progression team (team peanut butter as I like to call them) is on the Blood Princes.  The other 10 man team (team chocolate :D) has cleared up to Saurfang (I think).  When I finally hit 80 and get my gear going I will get to join team chocolate (assuming I am made a raider) and raid with them.  To this effort I have been spending most of my time leveling my baby lock.

No she does not need to wand faster either! >.>

While in SR’s vent the other day, several people (mostly Tir) were talking about the 25 man progression of the guild.  Tir comes from a high end raiding guild.  It is what he does.  I come from a lower end 10 man raiding guild (see above).  We have two very different views on the end game.  I want to raid with friends and have fun all while beating the ever living shit out of a boss.  I’ve been lucky because my friends I raid with know how to raid well.  I know there are a lot of people who don’t have that luxury.  Being in a guild similar to what Tir is used to is almost anathema to me.  I play to have fun, to escape, not to give myself more stress.

When I think of 25 man progression raiding I get a headache.  Ari called it herding kittens, but I think of it more like dealing with a ton of whiny, bratty 8-10 year olds.  If you have ever had to deal with kids at that age then you can see where I am going with this.  Fun just doesn’t seem to come into play with this set-up.

Now before someone chimes in about how I haven’t done 25 mans and therefore have no real bearing on how they work or how they don’t; know that I am keeping an open mind in regards to 25 mans with SR.  I knew going in that it was their goal.  I just need to wait and see what it really turns out to be like.

On to my other thoughts running around in my head.

The WoW.com article spotlighted a 10 man strict progression guild and it got me thinking about the disparity in raiding rewards.  All the special stuff drops in 25 man.  Legendary weapons, trophies and primordial saronite just to list a few.  You HAVE to be in a 25 man raid to see these things.  Sure you could pug them, but if you aren’t the guild that started the pug you can forget keeping the items or even getting a fair shot at them.  Very imbalanced to me.

Blizzard opened up 10 man raiding because of the high praise they got for Kara and ZA.  It also opened up a lot of the content to people who had problems creating 25 man raids.  Despite all of that, they still treat 10 mans as extra raid IDs for 25 man raiding guilds.  This leads people to think that 25 mans are where it is at and that 10 mans are just easy mode raiding.  I don’t know about you, but in the 25 mans I have pugged, I could have fallen asleep (even being a healer) and no one would notice.  In 10 mans, you can’t have someone sleeping.  As a result you become (hopefully) a much more reactive player and can pull kills instead of wipes.  One of the comments on WoW.com said that all 25 man raids have a core of 10-15 people who know what they are doing with the rest being essentially dead weight.  I tend to agree with that comment in theory.  This is further backed up by another comment Tir made about getting a few more people raid ready so that the others could be carried though.

Wait a moment here.  Why should you just carry people through?  Why should a raid be made around the idea that you will HAVE to carry people through?  That puts unfair stress on the people who know what they are doing.  It also ties in nicely with my ideas of 25 mans.  They aren’t “better” than 10 mans, they just allow more people to be carried.  Most of the people who are the most vocal about 25 mans being better are usually the ones being carried.  You put those same people in a 10 man and their obvious short comings are still there.  They still stand in the fire.  They don’t switch targets.  Their dps is sub par.  Yet you are the scrub because you are in a 10 man raid.  Yeah, uh huh, like I believe that load of crap.

Tir did make a comment that I agree with: 25 man ICC is not the place to learn to raid.  If you haven’t mastered the ability to not stand in the bad or how to switch targets correctly so that the RL and/or healers don’t yell at you to get off the boss or move.  Here is a tip: WHEN THERE ARE ADDS OR NASTY THINGS THAT ATTACK YOUR PARTY MEMBERS: KILL THEM/IT!  DO NOT ASSUME SOMEONE ELSE WILL DO IT.  SWITCH TARGETS!


Unless you have been specifically told to stand in something that is different than the regular floor, your best bet is to move and move fast.  Don’t wait for your channeled spell to finish.  GET THE FUCK AWAY.

It is really that simple.

Now I’ve gone and made myself pissy.  Note to self – Talking about stuff that gets you ranting is not a good idea when you have stopped drinking soda and haven’t taken your pills for 3 weeks.

59 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. telanarra
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 12:20:45

    “No she does not need to wand faster either! >.>”

    you are obviously mistaken.

    “While in SR’s vent the other day, several people (mostly Tir) were talking about the 25 man progression of the guild.”

    poor Tir 🙂

    There are a few 25mans pug i have seen where it is open roll on everything, but they are few and far between


  2. Doz
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 12:54:17

    I like to be carried to phat lutz. Thats why I just stand there and let the boss beat on me while Orange and Tel spam heals on me. Its good to be the tank.


  3. Doz
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 13:01:10

    Not entire instances…usually just a hall at a time.


  4. Doz
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 13:02:22

    Although I was chain pulling ICC10 the other night and that seemed to irritate Ari, but on the positive side everyone was paying close attention and we cleared through Saurfang in like 45min. Thats a plus in my book.


  5. Doz
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 13:10:22

    lol..I look forward to irritating you, of course if you run out of mana its b/c you havent found the lifetap button yet.


  6. Doz
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 13:15:51

    nah..my healers have run with us enough to know the routine, and when you only raid 10 man twice a week you want to clear that lower spire asap to get shots on the actual progression content. When we first stepped in ICC we pulled that lower spire turtle slow.


  7. Dark/Soth
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 13:20:56

    In a 25 man raid, there are always X number of players being carried. If X is 0, you have probably downed the Lich King. If X is 8-10, you are probably stuck in “Storming the Citadel”. Its true of any 25-man raid at the endgame. Think of it another way, in most (not all) 25-man encounters, you really only need 15 ppl to be solid raiders, you just need the other 10 to not fuck up. Its not the same in 10 mans, usually there are 8ish important roles and only 1-2 lazy positions, and with the hard dps requirements in ICC encounters (Saurfang and beyond), even those 1-2 still have to perform at a high level.


    • orangeslice
      Feb 24, 2010 @ 15:07:50

      25 man fights…I admit i don’t enjoy as much as 10 man. The loot is of course better in 25 man, something about them makes me restless. LIke others have mentioned…the while idea of having some amt of “warm” bodies therejust to fill in, irks me. Perfect setup all 25 people are all…but that is a dream.

      Also the 25 man raid, reminds me toooo much of Dynamis in FFXI….bring a bunch of people to a zone and hopefully some people are on A game and hopefully the rest can remember not to die to stupid.


    • Doz
      Feb 24, 2010 @ 16:03:05

      and thats why I prefer 25man. More kitten wrangling going on, but if one person “stands there and takes the empowered fire ball to the face” its not a complete wipe at that point.


      • Delerius
        Feb 25, 2010 @ 06:05:50


        “25 man is bad”
        “25 man is horrible”
        “25 man isn’t so fun”

        “that’s why I prefer 25 man”



  8. trixyheleva
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 14:01:14

    You guys remind me of my old BC Horde guild… those were goods times.


  9. Arasirsul
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 16:23:48

    Some people have always been carried in WoW. The only thing that changes is how many are carried and by how much. Downing Yogg-Saron in a 25 man raid group with ~200-226 (213 average) gear was a challenge. For a different 25 people it would be impossible in that gear. The same is true for Lich King in 250 gear.

    The big difference between those two groups of people is tenacity. One group gets frustrated after two or three wipes and calls it a night. They are content that they’ve done what they can and they’ll come back next week and start from the beginning and do better next time with more gear. The other group is willing to wipe for hours on end and refine their strategy every attempt until everyone gets it right. Those who can’t execute are replaced with those who do not need to be carried.


  10. Dilynrae
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 17:40:19

    It’s funny your mentioning the differences between 10 and 25 raid loots, I was just thinking about this for some time at work. And I must admit you are a 100% correct, although higher level loot drops in 25 mans, so do Orbs/Primordials and the special shards required to make legendary weapons.

    I feel this is totally unfair, I see no reason why these items shouldn’t drop in 10 mans, even if it meant lower the drop rate for the orbs/primordials, and making the special shards slightly different, which make a slightly lower ilvl but still 10 man equivalent. To my knowledge most 10 man guilds that do 25 man raiding RARELY are 100% guild, they consist of PUGS. Not to say there aren’t 25 man FULL raiding guilds out there, but compared to 10 man progression guilds, they generally number fewer then a dozen (if that) per server, it’s more likely a handful or less per server( and I refer to alliance and horde as separate numbers, not combined)


  11. Tiræl
    Feb 24, 2010 @ 18:38:37

    25 man loot is placed there as a reward for doing “harder” content. I use harder loosely here because in reality, 25 man content is not harder than 10 man content. Blizzard has done a great job of scaling down encounters originally meant to be 25 man raids to 10 man raids. That being said, there are certain fights that are EXTREMELY overtuned for a 10 man raid.

    What I mean by “overtuned” is that these fights are made INHERENTLY difficult by the marginal room for error. (SEE: Blood Princes/BQL/Putricide/Sindragosa). These encounters in particular are much more difficult because there is the same number of things to deal with as there is in their 25 man counterparts, but less people to deal with them.

    Now, this is from a STRICT 10 man guild raiding perspective vs a 25 man raiding guild perspective. A 25 man raiding guild will go in and ROFLSTOMP through most of ICC because they technically outgear 10 man content. 10 man guilds will actually have to PROGRESS (shocking) through 10 man content, similar to the way 25 man guilds progress through 25 man content.

    The difference that was spoke of in a different comment about tenacity vs better luck next time. This is the difference between a hardcore guild vs a casual guild. Hardcore guilds will set aside 3-6 nights a week for ONE raid. They will go in for 5-8 hours each night until they perfect their strats and get bosses down. (Read: These are the people contributing all those lovely videos over at Tankspot).

    Casual guilds will wait for these people to down the boss and use their strats to do it. This has been happening for a long time in WoW and will continue for the rest of WoWs lifespan.

    I do not think it is unfair for their to be extra awards in 25 mans. Why? Because that would be like saying we shouldn’t be able to get rep in 10 man ICC. They are raiding the content. They deserve those awards. Besides, a good portion of BiS gear doesn’t even come from 25 man..it comes from 10 man heroic.

    In the end, regardless of the content you raid, you are still raiding. 10 /= 25, 25 /= 10 man. Is 25 man content hard? Hell yes it is. Is it supposed to be? You bet your ass. Is 10 man content hard? Yes, for a strict 10 man PROGRESSION guild it is. Is it supposed to be? Yes. Which one is harder? Let me answer that question with an anecdote/one of my own:

    Take two people. Same class. Same skill level. The difference is one is in 25 man gear and the other is in 10 man gear. They are both raiding ICC at the same time in their respective content level (10 or 25). 25 man raider dies during Festergut at 50%. Raid still completes the kill. 10 man raider dies during Festergut at 50%. Do you think they still completed the kill? (Before you answer, realize that 25 man raider is in 25 man gear while 10 man raider is in 10 man gear ONLY).


  12. Ryan G
    Feb 25, 2010 @ 09:27:14

    Whoa, Wall of Text blog followed by epic comment thread.

    Very enlightening to hear someone else’s thoughts on raiding. Over the last 2+ years my co-workers and I have made the transition from “friendly guild” on an RP-PVP/fail server to hard-core raiding, to out of the game, to back-up raiding and pvp only.

    25-man raiding can be a chore, that’s why I think the right guild fit is the most important element. I had great fun as GM during Tier 7 content, getting up to Sarth+2D down with a hodge-podge mix of good raiders paired with whoever else showed up that day. However, T8 & T9 I spent as an officer in other guilds who progressed further, but always fell apart because nobody was having fun, least of all the leadership. Today I’m happily just a cog in the machine of my current guild and am actually happier now. (Of course, we’re downing most bosses ICC and are only a couple weeks behind progression)

    Having been on both sides, I hope that 25-man rewards are never diminished to the level of 10-man rewards for the simple fact that many many people have 10 GOOD friends in game; very few have 25 GOOD friends who will be on at the same time, geared/gemmed/enchanted/ready to raid. The bonus item love should reflect the business-like mentality that is required.


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