Now what?

There has been some recent discord going on in guild.  Discussions on how we have changed and if it is for the better.  I have mentioned before that during BC Call of Fate never really got out of Kara.  When Mis reformed all of us as Echo of Fate the goal was to see the end game raiding world.  We wanted to take down the Lich King.  Currently Echo of Fate is positioned to where we will see it happen.  The problem that arises is that attitudes change and people who have not been 100% on board for it are feeling the strain.

Echo of fate is first and foremost a casual guild of friends.  Yes we raid, but we are not a raiding guild.  We raid because that is what our members enjoy doing.  We had always been primarily about bringing our guildies and working with what we have vs ZOMG GEAR!  The downside to that is that we stall on progression while we get people geared up.  Or if we push on progression then we leave guildies behind.  Personally I’d rather cut back on progression and get the guildies geared up.  The less people I have to pug for a raid the better off we are as a whole.  Yes, we have recently gotten some new recruits from PuGing, but I would still rather only bring guildies.

I have proposed (OK so I told everyone this is how it would work) that Wednesday night’s ICC run in the lower spire will be bringing in the lesser prepared guildies in to get some gear and rep.  The first 3 fights don’t really require a metric crap ton of dps so we should be perfectly fine with bringing some people who don’t pull 5k dps.  In fact last week showed that we were more than fine.  Now I am not saying that we don’t bring a few dps who pull more than average *cough*Andrew*cough* to help out with lower than normal numbers but it isnt mandatory.  On Saturday we would tackle the newer bosses and get some progression going.  This last week worked out perfectly for that.  Wednesday we cleared up to Saurfang and even got a few good attempts on him.  Saturday we knocked him out and took down Festergut again.  We made several attempts at Rotface as well.  All in all it was a good week for ICC.  There is no reason why this will not be the case in the future.

One of the other issues that has popped up is the attitude change.  Some people are really acquiring an elitist attitude and it is hurting other aspects.  Gearscore numbers are being thrown around like it is the be-all end-all of everything.  That just drives me up the wall.  I use gear score to get an idea of where people could successfully perform well.  For example:  If a player is ilvl 200 geared I might not bring them to ICC if they were a tank or a healer (unless they were like a 3rd healer with 2 well geared healers) but I would be willing to give them a chance to dps if I knew they were competent.  Take Arioch’s DK for example.  She was not even fully ilvl 200 geared and we brought her into ICC 10 to the lower spire.  She was using a weapon from a heroic 5 man.  I don’t even think it was an epic.  She still managed to stay above the tanks.  She stayed out of the bad and followed directions.  She was every raid leader’s dream.  Now a RL wet dream would be someone who did that, wasn’t an ass and pulled 7k dps, but I digress.  She pulled about 3k-3.5k dps.  Was I upset?  Nope.  I thought she did fantastic and I can’t wait to see how much better she does on Wednesday now that she has a few upgrades.  We had a similar story with one of our returning raiders.  Felix had been gone for several months and when he came back we pulled him into ICC in ilvl 213 gear (Ulduar).  That first night he did only 2.3k dps.  He got 2 upgrades and moved up to 3.5k dps.  This week after several new pieces saw him pulling 5.5k-6.6k dps.  Skill is needed no matter what.  Gear just helps skill to shine.

We have a few people who are waving their epeen around and it is just making others very unhappy.  Issues with gear drops have happened.  It isn’t always in main chat though.  I get whispers from people, the O chat lights up and the healer channel jumps in as well.  We use main spec roll, then off spec roll.  Once you win something you cannot roll again unless no one wants it.  MOST of the time that works.  There have been issues where some people come in on a different spec than what is their “main” spec, despite never raiding on that spec, and wanting to roll on everything.  I am not alone in saying that I am unhappy with this attitude.  Having one uber geared person in the raid is NOT going to make the raid a better machine.  Getting the upgrades to the people who TRULY need it is VASTLY more important to the raid as a whole.  I don’t know if this means we need to change our loot rules or what.  Something has to change though.

Raiding, to me, is more about the group than the person.  Would I love to bring my warlock in and get her all decked out so that she can bring the pain?  Yes, yes I would.  Do I say: “Oh I don’t need gear on Tatia anymore so I think I am going to bring my warlock instead.  Yes I know you guys need my druid heals, but gearing my warlock is more important.”  No, no I don’t.  I bring Tatia to the raids because I know that we need healers.  If we get to where we have the healers to make up for her loss, then I will start bringing Millea.  Until then I am going to keep doing what the raid as a whole needs.  Putting my wants over the raid isn’t a cool thing and it creates unneeded strife.

Someone mentioned to me that it felt like EoF was going back down the slippery slope that was CoF towards the end of BC.  We had a few assholish people in guild who basically made it out like they were the only reason that our guild got anywhere or did anything.  The focus was taken off the guild and pushed towards them.  Their backs must have been aching after carrying us so far /sarcasm.  They have since moved on to raiding guilds.  Several of them are never allowed to raid with us again.  There are a few that are dangerously close to acting like this and it is something that needs to be nipped in the bud.  No one really wants to play with a primadonna.

Another issue I feel like I am having is not having everyone’s attention while I am raid leading.  I kind of fell into the job during Ulduar.  While I enjoy it, having people ignore what I have asked to have done or flat out doing something else makes me not want to do it anymore.  I will gladly turn over the raid leading reins to someone else if they want them.  If I am not doing a good job, then someone just needs to let me know and I will step back.  I am already getting close to having too much on my plate so letting go of raid leading is something I have thought of.  If I don’t have the respect or attention of my raiders then why am I leading in the first place?  I have no problem with people giving me suggestions if I am doing something wrong; it just needs to be done the right way.  Don’t tell me over vent I am doing it wrong.  That diminishes me in front of the rest of the raid.  Don’t just do things on your own when I have asked to have it done a different way.  Whisper me and tell me there.  Trust me, if your idea or viewpoint is better I will use it.  I get whispers with suggestions constantly.  I use them all the time.  Several things that we do while raiding ICC were suggestions from our recently departed warlock.  I get whispers from Dozzer on suggestions on how to do things.  When I know we can do them, I do.  There are correct ways to do things.  Ignoring me and pissing me off is not one of them.

I was sent a guest post from one of my guildies to post today.  At first I was going to post it, but I decided that it would end up causing more problems so you guys get this post instead.  Any suggestions as to what we could do would be appreciated.

Tomorrow I have some news to share with everyone.  So stay tuned in for it.  😀


54 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Ryan G
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:20:21

    First, this is a lament that many GM’s & Raid Leaders have had. It sucks to be the person in a psuedo-authority position when people start flaking and turning sour.

    I’m a little confused though, because your post starts out sounding like you have guildies flaking on you, causing you to PUG, but in the end it’s clear that it’s the other way around; Good Raiders vs LOL Raiders.

    Arioch makes some good points about how to handle loot. As GM, I ran EPGP with great success and transparency. We had to adjust the system as we went along (eventually charging 50% GP for off-spec and greed pieces), but in the end, the guildies liked knowing where they were on the list, and the dedicated raiders were rewarded while the recent additions could still get gear that other’s weren’t keen on, without drama.

    As far as leading, you’ve proven that pugging doesn’t prohibit success. If there are raid/guild members who aren’t contributing to the greater good, boot ’em. Something about “only as strong as the weakest link”.


    • koalabear21
      Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:28:08

      That is where the problem is coming in. Dealing with the players that are causing the strife with minimal drama.

      Because we are all friends it makes it tough. Especially since we have moved from one kind of focus to another.

      Growing pains as it were.

      I have thought about suggesting going to a loot system, but I don’t know if that would truly work with us.


  2. slice213
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:34:41

    As one of those kittens…its my job to drive Ari up the wall.


    As Arioch posted, make everyone post a main and main spec and off spec, set in in stone etc. Or move to EP/GP, get rid of the headaches before it gets worse, no add-on no loot.

    If people are only seeing purple, people need to re-evaluate why they are in a guild if they are not willing to bring the toon/spec the guild needs at the time. Guild > loot, not loot > guild. If that is the reason for raiding, tis not the best reason to be in a guild.

    When in a raid….attention goes to the RL. You put the responsibility (and the added stress) in their hands. You now owe it to them to play hard and work hard, no moaning and whine. RL word is law for the most part, there are exceptions.


  3. Nitedragon
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:39:04

    I think this is some of the reason I don’t raid much anymore. I don’t even want toplay Nitedragon anymore. I like most eveyone that I’ve done a lot of playing with in the guild. There are some that have gotten big heads now and it drives me up the wall. When I see them talk in gchat, I almost want to gquit.

    For the most part I’ve stayed out of it. I’m not on as much and don’t see all the drama so I can’t comment on it. I tried to do my part to help the guild back in the CoR days even before I was an officer there. Now I don’t want tohave much to do with the guild. It could be I’m jealous that I can’t be part of the progression team (that’s noones fault but my own of course).

    But that’s not all of it. Itcomes down to I just don’t want to run with some people. I think some people have gotten big heads and if you can’t compete with their high gear score/dps/whatever, you shouldn’t raid. It just pisses me off.


    • koalabear21
      Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:44:51

      You aren’t alone in feeling that way. I hear about it from others. That is kind of why this post was made. I have also been keeping Mis up to date with this.

      He actually read this post before I posted it. I am hoping this will be a way to give some people a heads up without openly calling them out.

      I am thinking that we might need to re-work the raiding times again to see what works better with the people we have now. I would love to have you back with us. You are missed very much.


  4. Slo
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 09:48:21

    I definitely feel your pain on this one, hun. I fell into leading, and admittedly when our usual MT is around he does the actual strategizing, but I still have to deal with the loot, the people who are ready with alt number X as soon as this ‘main’ is geared, and so on.

    My guild is mostly a temporary place, for friends who were sick of the drama and struggle in poorly led 25 man guilds, sick of feeling like we were pulling more than our share. We have done really well in ICC for what we are, and you guys are doing great as well. I think we have a lot of similarities between our guilds right now.

    All the things you listed happen to us as well, and they make me miss a more raiding-centric guild, with clear cut expectations. I strongly agree with having everyone declare a raiding ‘main’ because this is key for progression, synergy, and maintaining standards. Have an alt run night if people really want to get the alts geared, but make it clear progression nights are for mains.

    We too have avoided implementing a loot council or any system other than /roll, but one thing we do is let everyone who is interested roll, and then if the winner has already gotten loot, it goes to second highest, and so on. Similar to what you do, but instead of saying no more rolling after a piece, then you can see what loot people are interested in, what they consider an upgrade, and start to see who is or isn’t getting their fair share.

    I hope you can work things out, but the casual guild that raids is a hard line to walk, too many people on one side or the other and you start to struggle to keep the balance. Good luck, and keep on giving me a shout when you are pugging, I always think the pug you know is better than the pug you don’t!


  5. Tiræl
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 10:38:47

    Now a RL wet dream would be someone who did that, wasn’t an ass and pulled 7k dps, but I digress.

    I almost fit that bill..except according to all accounts, I am an asshole.

    Knowing some the history behind this post, here is my take on things. People who never raided (or raided end game content) always saw those that did and said “I want my character to have that gear”. Once they find themselves in the position of those raiders, their eyes turn purple and that is all they see.

    As many people can atest (I am not stroking my epeen here) I post some decent dps numbers, and stil perform utility roles (isn’t that right Slo?). You don’t see me hounding after gear.

    Some would say, “Oh shut up you already have it.” Ok, maybe I do. I remember having a gear dry spell for 6 solid months (no upgrades from ToC/ToGC/ICC) while others around me were getting drop after drop. I still outperformed these people.

    Why? I would like to think that I am a little better than your average player. The most common misconception about gear is that it will make you a better player. This is wrong. Nothing can change the amount of skill you have, except practice/research.

    Moving on to the situation at hand, when you come to a raid, you roll on the gear for the CLASS ROLE you are performing. None of this, I am healing but I want dps gear crap. In a ten man raid environment, gear is already hard to come by (even more so in a 25 man raid) and that gear should go to those people who are performing that role. A healer should not be rolling on dps gear and winning it over a dps UNLESS the dps does not want the gear. Rolling on gear because you WANT it to be your main spec and taking it from someone else whose actually main spec dps is a bullshit move. Period.

    The last comment were somewhat directed at me because I was trolling their vent during the raid and made a verbial slip-up during one of their explanations. That was wrong of me and I want to publicly apologize for my comment. I was meant as joke and was taken the wrong way. I should have known better and I am sorry.

    When I raid with you this week, expect me to be your back up 100%. Regardless of what you say, I will follow it (and personally make sure no one contradicts you).


  6. Slo
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 11:01:37

    I would say better than decent dps, while performing the utility (I had to redrop earthbind every 45 seconds too, do I get a cookie?)

    …At least until you bail on the raid, right? =)


  7. Vel
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 11:25:12


    I totally agree with people declaring their “main spec” to roll for during the raid and informing them you can only change it once for whatever period of time. I really feel that would entice people to really think about running as other specs, gearing up more healers possibly. Personally, I do not agree with any kind of point system, at all, ever.

    Here’s an example that wouldn’t happen cause I wouldn’t do this: Let’s say I start bringing my druid to raids, and rolling main spec for feral. Let’s say I’ve been doing this for a while, my points are built waaaay up cause my luck with stuff I actually want sucks. Now we finally get Nite to join us, which is rare that he is even on when most of us are now. Potentially, I could screw him out of every piece of gear that drops because he is putting real life ahead of the game. He is every bit as dedicated to the guild as I am, but because he has a family to think about first, and things in real life change, I can be here when we raid and he can’t.

    That, in my opinion, is complete bullshit. May as well make it a gdkp run at that point and say only the rich can progress.

    My opinion is maybe instead of multiple higher end people getting to roll against that one lower end person that hasn’t raided with us for waaaaaay to long (Hope your back for good Bri!) for their first item, maybe the lower geared person should have first dibs to push them forward a bit more so they can see the second wing and hold their own there. Maybe allow it to happen until their overall gearscore hits 4.5-5k? If you think about it, from how big of an upgrade a lot of things can be, that should be easily attainable with the content most of us don’t benefit from anymore anyway.

    Course… this could pose issues with certain people that gear up their toons in our guild, then leave… then do it again… and leave…. then do it again…. then leave…. and are now back to do it again…. and leave….cough…


    I’ve always firmly believed that the raid leader make the decisions, call the shots, lay down the strat. If they are not sure about something, they either look it up, or ask the group what their spin is, and we try what sounds best. I throw things at Mil in private as observations, and sometimes just to make her think again about the strat and if there is a better way. Constructive criticism is good, understanding the raid leader may not use your information and not letting it get to you is better.

    Also would like to point out that during boss fights, vent should be clear of all chat so if the healers/tanks need to call something out, they dont have to shout over everyone to get it done.

    Gearscore…. if one more person throws gearscore in someones face after the 3 people that were “undergeared” shined like you wouldn’t believe…. I’m going to /gquit with all of my toons and transfer out. That’s how fed up I am with it, especially when it comes to guild members that have been with us LONGER than the people complaining about it.

    Wow… this post came off angry. Sorry about that, but since I said I would be less of an ass in game, guess some things have been building up.


  8. Hêx
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 12:30:22

    I guess what I don’t get is why people feel the need to have every single alt geared to epic proportions. If all you care about is the gear, some day you’ll reach the point where every one of your characters can’t use any new loot and then where does that leave you? Are you going to sit there, with a bunch of pretty alts congratulating yourself on how huge your e-peen is? Imo, the point of gear is to better prepare yourself to take on challenges, not the actual gear per say. Maybe I just don’t understand the deep seeded need to wave around my e-peen because I only have one lvl 80, but regardless, don’t be a fucking douche and listen to your raid leader, and don’t be in a guild for gear. Be in a guild because you enjoy what that guild does, be it wipe in spectacular fashion, make inappropriate jokes in the middle of a raid, down BQL after she has hit her enrage timer, or face smash to the point of Downing Lich king first week.

    Ok, now I’ve put in my opinion, take it as you will.


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  10. Doz
    Mar 15, 2010 @ 14:54:14

    “I get whispers from Dozzer on suggestions on how to do things. When I know we can do them, I do. There are correct ways to do things. Ignoring me and pissing me off is not one of them.”

    Sorry Lyss. I didnt realize I was ignoring you. I was just being quiet and letting you run your raid. My apologies.


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